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  #11  
Unread 06-28-2012, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

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Originally Posted by Resistance View Post

A debate cannot turn into an argument. An argument cannot turn into a debate. It's like a girl cannot turn into water and vice-versa.
wrong. just becuase an argument and a debate are two diffrent things does not mean they cant change. that is like saying that an oxygen particle cant turn into water: it only takes another oxygen particle and a hydrogen particle to become water. similarly a debate can become an argument. a debate can become an argument (1) when one side or the other refuses to change their view. as the definition of argument (1) is An exchange of diverging or opposite views. a debate can become an argument (2) when one side or the other is trying to persuade the other that an action or idea is right or wrong. the meaning of argument (2) is A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
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Originally Posted by Resistance View Post

Need to define 'bad'. This is a problem i have been seeing in most of your threads.(This is constructive criticism.) Using vague words will only cause delays and problems in communicating your thoughts. I'll assume 'bad' in relation to human progress.
i asked that question assuming each person would use there own personal term of bad. i ask these kinds of questions to see how each person thinks and why. if i saw a problem in what definition they used i would say so.
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Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
Argument-1 is unproductive, therefore bad for human progress.
Argument-2 is productive, therefore good for human progress.
Debate is productive, therefore good for human progress.
why do you say that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
Do realise that there are good argument-1 and bad argument-2 in a different context where 'bad' is used differently. Such an example would be a bad argument-2 like this:

Boy is a human.
Girl is a human.
Human is a human.
Therefore, boy is a girl.

Three premises followed by a conclusion, you have an argument-2.
All the premises are good, so the conclusion should be too right?
Wrong. This argument commits a fallacy, which fallacy did it commit?
You'll have to think...
ok i see what you mean there. there are always going to be situations where something is bad and something is good. it depends on the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
All of the above is factual.
My opinion on this topic is that i am very sad to see the misunderstandings of the definition of 'argument' and 'debate'.
not all of the above (of what you wrote) is factual. for one there is no certain facts. all of the facts of this world have something that can disprove them. look at science for example: what is considered as facts are just the theorys that are most correct or have the least things aganst it.

why do you feel that you have to come into this peaceful thread and dissect what people say? you make it look as if you think your always right. you dissect what people say down to details. it makes it seem as if a person can not comment in here without you trying to prove them wrong and yourself right. this is just from my point of view but others may see it the same way.
  #12  
Unread 06-28-2012, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

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Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
wrong. just becuase an argument and a debate are two diffrent things does not mean they cant change. that is like saying that an oxygen particle cant turn into water: it only takes another oxygen particle and a hydrogen particle to become water. similarly a debate can become an argument. a debate can become an argument (1) when one side or the other refuses to change their view. as the definition of argument (1) is An exchange of diverging or opposite views. a debate can become an argument (2) when one side or the other is trying to persuade the other that an action or idea is right or wrong. the meaning of argument (2) is A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
Wrong. As i've kindly said that everything except my opinion in my previous post is factual. An oxygen particle really can't turn into water. Your logic is flawed here. Can you see where you have made an error?

Let me show you.
I say that an atom of oxygen cannot turn into water.
Premise 1. An atom of oxygen only has one atom of oxygen.
Premise 2. Water is made up of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen.
Conclusion = An atom of oxygen cannot turn into water.

By the way, water is made up of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen, not two atoms of oxygen and one of hydrogen. It's chemically named H2O for a reason. Your HO2 is actually hydroperoxyl radical, which is radically different. (The pun..)

So you're wrong again, since a debate which is the exchange of two or more arguments (2), while argument (1) is not the exchange of two Argument (2). I understand why you would think otherwise though.
Many people are confused with the difference between argument (2) and one side of argument (1). The difference lies in the logical aspect. I've already touch this in my previous post so perhaps you didn't understand it the first time. The difference is in the mindset or purpose of the arguments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
i asked that question assuming each person would use there own personal term of bad. i ask these kinds of questions to see how each person thinks and why. if i saw a problem in what definition they used i would say so.
I see. However, it would then be expected of everyone to clarify their personal terms and address as many different definitions as they please.
It isn't very convenient and polite of you to do this in an intellectual discussion. It's presenting a vague topic and letting the responders going through the hassle of clarification. That's why BA threads have the OP filled with clarification. It's just manners and basic etiquette.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
why do you say that?
That's self-explanatory, it's in the definition of the words.
If you still need me to expand after looking up the definitions, i'll be compliant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
not all of the above (of what you wrote) is factual. for one there is no certain facts. all of the facts of this world have something that can disprove them. look at science for example: what is considered as facts are just the theorys that are most correct or have the least things aganst it.
Wrong, there is certain facts. No, facts cannot be disproven.
No, facts and theories are different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
why do you feel that you have to come into this peaceful thread and dissect what people say? you make it look as if you think your always right. you dissect what people say down to details. it makes it seem as if a person can not comment in here without you trying to prove them wrong and yourself right. this is just from my point of view but others may see it the same way.
I don't feel that i have to do that. I don't make it look as if i think i am always right. I dissect what people say down to details. I know it does seem that way. I'm sure many others have seen it the same way you have.
I see it the same way you do, myself. How do i put this nicely..
I am very knowledgeable on certain scientific fields, in that i've been through all angles in certain topics and subjects. So like anyone, when i am on a forum with threads about my field of study, i'll share what i know.
So the facts that i know of, i'll put it on the fields so people can have a more informed discussion. This will help people learn and everyone is happy.
However, theres a problem when i encounter false beliefs or misinformed ideas. If i meet a person who believes the planet earth is a flatland, i'll appear arrogant and think i'm always right. Then people will feel that they cannot make a comment without me trying to prove them wrong..

Do you get the gist of what's going on now?
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  #13  
Unread 06-28-2012, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

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Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
Wrong. As i've kindly said that everything except my opinion in my previous post is factual. An oxygen particle really can't turn into water. Your logic is flawed here. Can you see where you have made an error?

Let me show you.
I say that an atom of oxygen cannot turn into water.
Premise 1. An atom of oxygen only has one atom of oxygen.
Premise 2. Water is made up of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen.
Conclusion = An atom of oxygen cannot turn into water.

By the way, water is made up of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen, not two atoms of oxygen and one of hydrogen. It's chemically named H2O for a reason. Your HO2 is actually hydroperoxyl radical, which is radically different. (The pun..)

So you're wrong again, since a debate which is the exchange of two or more arguments (2), while argument (1) is not the exchange of two Argument (2). I understand why you would think otherwise though.
Many people are confused with the difference between argument (2) and one side of argument (1). The difference lies in the logical aspect. I've already touch this in my previous post so perhaps you didn't understand it the first time. The difference is in the mindset or purpose of the arguments.

ok for one i wasent really trying to think of that. i just kinda messed up for a second. but im sure that im not able to convince you that im not stupid so im not going to try.
everything can change inclueding arguments and discussions. all it takes is an exchange of something. that means like how as you said one oxygen needs two hydrogens all that is needed is something else. meaning that and argument can change to a discussion and a discussion to an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
I see. However, it would then be expected of everyone to clarify their personal terms and address as many different definitions as they please.
It isn't very convenient and polite of you to do this in an intellectual discussion. It's presenting a vague topic and letting the responders going through the hassle of clarification. That's why BA threads have the OP filled with clarification. It's just manners and basic etiquette.
all the threads i make are purly what you think threads. i alow people to think as far as they want. unlike what it seems like you want i let people think without restriction. take for example the top of this post: you seem to be takeing each element by its self refuseing to add anything to it. i am takeing each element and alowing things to be added. now i know you probibly think thats wrong of me to do. but i can create a thread the way i want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
That's self-explanatory, it's in the definition of the words.
If you still need me to expand after looking up the definitions, i'll be compliant.
if you really dont want to explane then dont.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
Wrong, there is certain facts. No, facts cannot be disproven.
No, facts and theories are different things.
no your wrong. there is no such thing as a certian fact. its all in the way we see the world. even saying im human is the way i see the world. we have named our species human so to anyone else who also takes that as a fact it is fact. also if scientific facts changed so would alot of other things. so no actualy my argument does not just apply to science. facts are just extreemly correct theorys. every fact can be proven wrong. but of course i dont expect you to understand this. i know with the way you are your not going to listen to what i say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance View Post
I don't feel that i have to do that. I don't make it look as if i think i am always right. I dissect what people say down to details. I know it does seem that way. I'm sure many others have seen it the same way you have.
I see it the same way you do, myself. How do i put this nicely..
I am very knowledgeable on certain scientific fields, in that i've been through all angles in certain topics and subjects. So like anyone, when i am on a forum with threads about my field of study, i'll share what i know.
So the facts that i know of, i'll put it on the fields so people can have a more informed discussion. This will help people learn and everyone is happy.
However, theres a problem when i encounter false beliefs or misinformed ideas. If i meet a person who believes the planet earth is a flatland, i'll appear arrogant and think i'm always right. Then people will feel that they cannot make a comment without me trying to prove them wrong..

Do you get the gist of what's going on now?
well you know what your way of dissecting peoples posts restricts the freedom of my thread. no one is going to come in here and post there view if they see that your in here ready to tare it apart. and dont even try to say that they are just afraid of the truth. your restricting peoples freedom of speach. you seem to not alow anything but something that agrees with you. i understand that you will never understand me becuase i think in a diffrent way. i dont limit the way i think to your rules thus your always going to consider me wrong. but i am not wrong, not necessarily. you wont even consider anything i say becuase im so diffrent. your just a normal person taken to the extreem: your not going to take a single word from someone who thinks and is so diffrent. now as the thread creator im going to have to ask you to stop. i dont want this thread to die just because people cant post freely in here. please dont argue with that just stop. im trying to protect my thread, im not trying to be mean. i just want this thread to be able to continue.
  #14  
Unread 06-28-2012, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
ok for one i wasent really trying to think of that. i just kinda messed up for a second. but im sure that im not able to convince you that im not stupid so im not going to try.
everything can change inclueding arguments and discussions. all it takes is an exchange of something. that means like how as you said one oxygen needs two hydrogens all that is needed is something else. meaning that and argument can change to a discussion and a discussion to an argument.
So a boy can change into a star according to your logic.
If that's the case, i rest my case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
all the threads i make are purly what you think threads. i alow people to think as far as they want. unlike what it seems like you want i let people think without restriction. take for example the top of this post: you seem to be takeing each element by its self refuseing to add anything to it. i am takeing each element and alowing things to be added. now i know you probibly think thats wrong of me to do. but i can create a thread the way i want to.
I'm just saying that 1=1, 1 cannot change into 2. The only way 1 can change into 2 is by adding 1 to it. However, you get 1+1 and not 1.
So 1 cannot change into 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
no your wrong. there is no such thing as a certian fact. its all in the way we see the world. even saying im human is the way i see the world. we have named our species human so to anyone else who also takes that as a fact it is fact. also if scientific facts changed so would alot of other things. so no actualy my argument does not just apply to science. facts are just extreemly correct theorys. every fact can be proven wrong. but of course i dont expect you to understand this. i know with the way you are your not going to listen to what i say.
Can you explain how facts can be proven wrong?
I'm actually listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
well you know what your way of dissecting peoples posts restricts the freedom of my thread. no one is going to come in here and post there view if they see that your in here ready to tare it apart. and dont even try to say that they are just afraid of the truth. your restricting peoples freedom of speach. you seem to not alow anything but something that agrees with you. i understand that you will never understand me becuase i think in a diffrent way. i dont limit the way i think to your rules thus your always going to consider me wrong. but i am not wrong, not necessarily. you wont even consider anything i say becuase im so diffrent. your just a normal person taken to the extreem: your not going to take a single word from someone who thinks and is so diffrent. now as the thread creator im going to have to ask you to stop. i dont want this thread to die just because people cant post freely in here. please dont argue with that just stop. im trying to protect my thread, im not trying to be mean. i just want this thread to be able to continue.
I strongly believe that this entire paragraph of yours^ can be applied to you. You don't accept other people's view. You only accept other's when they're in agreement with you. I'm the only opposing one against you, so you'll be happy to be rid of me. I understand that you'll never understand me as well just because i think differently from you. I don't limit the way i think to your rules, thus you're always going to consider me as wrong.
You're just a normal person taken to the extreme: you're not going to take a single word from someone who thinks and is, so different.
I require that you justify your actions before i consider them. You ask me to stop. Stop what? Please complete your sentence. "Please don't argue with that just stop." I believe you meant 'Please don't argue with my request, just stop responding and be compliant with my request.' Of course, i can't put words into your mouth, so what do you really mean?
In the event that i am correct, i'll just give a retort.
So you'll restrict my freedom of speech for the belief that you'll protect your thread? Not once have you presented a satisfying case to counter my arguments. Of course people would not have much to add in this thread after my posts. You pop a question, i give a thorough answer. So now anyone who wants to continue this thread will either repeat my posts or counter it. The reason why it seems like i'm restricting others from posting is because not many people is able to counter my posts properly.
Those who repeats my post just don't really add much purpose.
So it would seem that way to you. So i don't see any reason to restrict my freedom of posting in this thread. Anyone is welcome to counter my arguments or support them.
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Unread 06-28-2012, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

i give up. im not going to post again. i cant post. everything i think all of my views are wrong according to you. i cant post. i wont post. there is no reason to post. have fun i give up. you can have my thread. ill never make another thread. ill stop all posting in the discussion forums. ill just stay in the rp area and i guess crp (havent posted much in there yet). im obviously not worth anything. i cant post anything anymore. i give up. you win. ill stop trying to prove my point. even if im right im not going to try to prove it. ill never again post in the discussion areas. i guess ill just have to try to post in the anime section more. if i end up with not having much to post then my activity will drop... oh well. i give up you can have it. its yours. have fun, youve destroyed my will.
  #16  
Unread 06-28-2012, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

Can members not personalise their comments to one another. It causes arguments and stops constructive discussion.
Members dont have to post in this thread if they dont like the subject or how its being run and the thread maker can make their thread how they want but obviously if that person personalises responses and tries to control members it will upset members. So I suggest that members who are posting here, discuss the topic and not the person who is writing the post.
Please dont respond to this statement. I am moderating the thread to allow the discussion to continue in a positive and constructive way.
All posts which personalise and are not constructive will be removed by a Moderator.
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Last edited by Saber; 06-28-2012 at 11:46 PM.
  #17  
Unread 06-29-2012, 03:34 AM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

can we just agree to disagree now?

my view is that: discussion can become argument and vice versa. the diffrence between them is one is where opposite views clash but neather changes. a discussion is where two views clash but are willing to change. ive stated plenty of times already how they change. arguments are bad. discussions are good.

now that is my view. you may not agree with it and i may not agree with yours. but this thread is for people to post there view. when i said its a discussion i ment you can discuss why you think this or think that. no one should be forced to change there view. (sorry if that sounds a bit too personalized but i felt that i had to say that).
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Unread 06-29-2012, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

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Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
my view is that: discussion can become argument and vice versa. the diffrence between them is one is where opposite views clash but neather changes. a discussion is where two views clash but are willing to change. ive stated plenty of times already how they change. arguments are bad. discussions are good.
Expand on why you think arguments are bad and why discussions are good.
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Unread 06-29-2012, 04:50 AM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

arguments dont serve a purpose. all it is meaninglessly saying what you think to try and force the other to change while the other does the same things. discussions lead to understanding. by discussing something you can at the very least understand why the other thinks what they do.
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Unread 07-01-2012, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: argument vs debate

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Originally Posted by xenx'i View Post
arguments dont serve a purpose. all it is meaninglessly saying what you think to try and force the other to change while the other does the same things. discussions lead to understanding. by discussing something you can at the very least understand why the other thinks what they do.
It seems that everyone who has posted in this thread has similar views on this issue with care on the terminology. It's very pleasing to see this post of yours.
A huge improvement in the way you express your thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufio View Post
Arguements -can- be good in certain circumstances. Sometimes people hold alot back and need to let it out. I see it as more to do with relieving stress and mental health. It's more important to just getting it off your chest than what you actually have to say.
I especially like this one. By shifting the intent, one can adverse the effects and hence, have a useful purpose for arguments in certain circumstances. It's the little bits of special effort that makes my day. Just be careful with the terminology.
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