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Unread 01-27-2010, 04:26 PM
Izumi168 Izumi168 is offline
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Default Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

One of the interesting idea, I was reading about yesterday, influenced mainly from the Childhood's End, a science fiction novel by Sir Arthur C. Clarke. The idea of humanity reaching an end point through transformation to a higher form of existence. Rather than consciousness or existence in a non physical form in death (or afterlife), it talks about the role of the mind (not so much about souls which are pretty much the same as the mind with our brains as it's physical containers) or consciousness in the universe and the evolution of man beyond his physical self.

As much as non physical such an entity would be, it would probably exist in our realm as energy or perhaps pure data or perhaps able to hover above the 5th or 6th dimension as observers. Maybe in the very very very very distant future when the 2nd law of thermodynamics begins to kick in, fuel for fusion, hydrogen starts to run out and the environment because too hostile, intelligent life would be forced to evolve to such beings to survive and perhaps find options for survival or escape from the dying universe.

To put it in simpler anime/manga references which most of us maybe familar with a few, the Human Instrumentality Project in Neon Genesis Evangelion, Innovation (some what, look at the final words in S2's last episode) in Gundam 00, The Data Entity and its interest in human auto evolution in Suzumiya Haruhi, Ragnarok Sequence in Code Geass, the immortal beings seeking death as their final evolution in Alive:The Final Evolution and perhaps more. Gamers would recognise how this concepts are similar to backstories of all three races in Starcraft with very direct references to the Childhood's End such as the Overmind or the Overlord or latent psychic ablities among the Terran.

What do you think it is like to be such a possibly immortal/omni-intelligent being? Would we lose our individualities and lose what makes us human? If possible what do you think is required for such a evolutionery (or perhaps forced) step to occur? Would such a being, hypothetically speaking become/is God?

Last edited by Izumi168; 01-27-2010 at 04:29 PM.
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Unread 01-27-2010, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

Supreme entity huh?i agree this is a well used notion in animes.A so-call supreme being that runs everything in the shadows.

What do you think it is like to be such a possibly immortal/omni-intelligent being?
I would have no idea but certainly it would be akin to feeling God-like i guess.Since supposedly this being are supposed to hold all the answers.

Would we lose our individualities and lose what makes us human?
I should not think so,even though this entity supposely runs everything,i doubt it would have the ability to manipulate my own individuality or free will albeit of course some sort of mind control.

If possible what do you think is required for such a evolutionery (or perhaps forced) step to occur? Would such a being, hypothetically speaking become/is God?
For someone to surpass physicallity and transcend earthly bonds and become a "God-like" entity?I think the idea is far-fetched to say the least.I would believe if Computers regulate information and become omni-inteelligent but if you are talking about a human....no way.
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Unread 01-28-2010, 05:23 AM
Izumi168 Izumi168 is offline
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

Quote:
Originally Posted by tupac115 View Post
Supreme entity huh?i agree this is a well used notion in animes.A so-call supreme being that runs everything in the shadows.

What do you think it is like to be such a possibly immortal/omni-intelligent being?
I would have no idea but certainly it would be akin to feeling God-like i guess.Since supposedly this being are supposed to hold all the answers.

Would we lose our individualities and lose what makes us human?
I should not think so,even though this entity supposely runs everything,i doubt it would have the ability to manipulate my own individuality or free will albeit of course some sort of mind control.

If possible what do you think is required for such a evolutionery (or perhaps forced) step to occur? Would such a being, hypothetically speaking become/is God?
For someone to surpass physicallity and transcend earthly bonds and become a "God-like" entity?I think the idea is far-fetched to say the least.I would believe if Computers regulate information and become omni-inteelligent but if you are talking about a human....no way.
For the second question, I'm actually asking if we would lose ourselves if we could become such an entity.

For the third question it probably sound far-fetched (after all its science fiction). I would say if that is possible, the first scientifically speaking step would be the technology to transfer our minds into non organic containers like say a silicon brain or a combination of silicon and neurone brain (think Ghost in Shell). After all our brains are a product of nature, it wouldnt be surprising if scientists in the future would be able to map our experiences, knowledge and perhaps even personalities into a machine. That seems a little far from a non physical consciousness as consciousness in a machine is still quite physical by itself. Nevertheless, this would be the first step of reaching such an existence. Knowing that in the distant future, the universe would not be friendly to our frail bodies and computation would slow down rapidly due to the less energy left to do work (2nd law thermo), one of the ways for intelligent life to survive is to go beyond our physical selves or escape from another universe. Of course all on all this is still science fiction but worth discussing about.

In the Childhood's End, a humans were able to achieve this evolution to merge with the Overmind (some higher form of existence) by developing by latent psychic evolutionery path of humanity with the help of an advanced alien race known as the Overlords whose evolutionery paths is at its peak and unable to become one with the Overmind. The use of psychic sounds quite interesting but psychic by itself sounds quite pseudoscientific (thanks to those psychic fakers). Whether humans can evolve to perhaps have superior mental capability and gain a form of psychic ability that would be another topic.

Its interesting to note that such beings in fiction tend to be morally-neutral, uninterverntionist on an individual level, self righteous (claims to be good or at least their actions) and some what selfish and insecure.

Last edited by Izumi168; 01-28-2010 at 05:28 AM.
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Unread 01-28-2010, 05:40 AM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

Are you referring to what the Innovade's become at the end of the episode? Or type IV civilisation? Or is it simply energy beings?

There is an anime titled "Kaiba" that touched the issue of memory transfer.

My answer for question one will be life will become boring as lifetime reached eternity and there is nothing much for us to do.

It seems like our ancestor of unicellular being have experienced this when it evolved to multicellular being. I think we will be much like them losing our own individuality for a common goal.

It seemed human have become more and more intelligent as mundane job of keeping our survival is very much reduced allowing more parts of the brain to be used for intellectual purposes. If humanity no longer need to worry about their life, I believe that one day we will be able to churn much more information compared to what we can do now.
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Unread 01-28-2010, 06:05 AM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

Yeah more or less the same thing. The idea of innovation in Gundam 00 is the evolution of humankind into space by enhancing our physical and mental abilities. The last episode of it has a direct reference to the Childhood's End at the last part. This are simply steps to a common goal. A type IV civilisation would probably not be one with individuals with frail physical bodies but perhaps energy being or something around those lines with perhaps the ability to link with each other.

I like the analogy of single cell to multi cell organisms, it fits quite nicely.
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Unread 05-02-2010, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izumi168 View Post
For the second question, I'm actually asking if we would lose ourselves if we could become such an entity.

For the third question it probably sound far-fetched (after all its science fiction). I would say if that is possible, the first scientifically speaking step would be the technology to transfer our minds into non organic containers like say a silicon brain or a combination of silicon and neurone brain (think Ghost in Shell). After all our brains are a product of nature, it wouldnt be surprising if scientists in the future would be able to map our experiences, knowledge and perhaps even personalities into a machine. That seems a little far from a non physical consciousness as consciousness in a machine is still quite physical by itself. Nevertheless, this would be the first step of reaching such an existence. Knowing that in the distant future, the universe would not be friendly to our frail bodies and computation would slow down rapidly due to the less energy left to do work (2nd law thermo), one of the ways for intelligent life to survive is to go beyond our physical selves or escape from another universe. Of course all on all this is still science fiction but worth discussing about.

In the Childhood's End, a humans were able to achieve this evolution to merge with the Overmind (some higher form of existence) by developing by latent psychic evolutionery path of humanity with the help of an advanced alien race known as the Overlords whose evolutionery paths is at its peak and unable to become one with the Overmind. The use of psychic sounds quite interesting but psychic by itself sounds quite pseudoscientific (thanks to those psychic fakers). Whether humans can evolve to perhaps have superior mental capability and gain a form of psychic ability that would be another topic.

Its interesting to note that such beings in fiction tend to be morally-neutral, uninterverntionist on an individual level, self righteous (claims to be good or at least their actions) and some what selfish and insecure.
Oops.Sorry about that Izumi,i misunderstood.
Okay if you are asking if we could lose ourselves..then i think thats sould be the case.I mean if we become such an entitity,wouldnt it indirectly imply that we are basically omniptent in a sense?Humans always lose themselves in when in power.We drown in that emotion of being better than anybody and it currupts us.It not impossible to maybe regain some of our prior traits but it would take a man/woman of sustantial will i think.

I dont know much about the theories you said in your post but you do have a point,far-feteched it is but its still a possibility.On actually how it would come to happen i would do a little digging around and get back to you on a possible hypothesis to support that my friend.
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Unread 05-02-2010, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

Transferring consciousness into a machine is infeasible. I will provide 3 arguments to this end:

1) If this process duplicates a consciousness, the duplicate is not the original consciousness and the two are separate from each other. The duplicate will "remember" having existing and living in those years, but they will have been created after the process. What I am driving at: YOU will not live forever, YOUR MEMORIES AND EXPERIENCES may.

2) Without a physical body and the hormones that drive our emotions, a consciousness within a machine will not respond due to a complete lack of desire.

3) It is impossible to "evolve" into a machine. We are the complex result of a biological process and no amount of small changes will turn us into a "machine." Through manipulation, we may incorporate machines into our design, but machines, by nature of definition, are not natural.
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Unread 10-08-2010, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

Thinking about it..transfering consciousness into a machine would make use lose whatever humanity we have wouldnt it?

What would be our motivation,our drive?Just to exist to watch over the universe?Thats quite boring if i do say so myself.

However,usually this beings we see in these animes and shows decipit a higher being with a sort of warped morals...like mass genocide for the "Good" of the civilisation.That kinda thing.
I think if a person where to assimilate with a such a being,he would not retain any of his humanity in the process.Its a scary thought if a omnipotent being was hell bent on destroying us for our own good.
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Unread 10-09-2010, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

A totally logical being as they would tend to portray in fiction. I never actually thought of that. Then again it wouldn't be boring since the definition of boring wouldn't make sense to you anymore.
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Unread 10-29-2010, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: Higher Forms of Existence, the Final Evolution and the Childhood of Humanity Ends

This kind of reminds me of Stargate, in which the ancient ancestors of the modern human had incredible technology and evolutionary status, resulting in them 'ascending to a higher plane of existance' at one point.
At that point, they became overseers of the universe.

I personally don't see that happening, but the human mind is an incredible and (so far) un-understandable thing, so maybe one day it could happen.
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