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Unread 04-29-2010, 09:36 PM
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Default Why Freeza and Goku are in the hundred millions. [Part 1]

It has come to our attention at large, as well as well before my time on an earlier rendition of the board that most people continue to perfervidly contest that Freeza (100%) and SSj Goku were not in the hundred millions and that Goku was using the Kaio-ken x10 the whole time, swearing up and down on that matter and not coming to heel with the truth behind the matter in a terms of the resulting altercation, for those who set up their teeth against each other think it’s too high; the glancing flaw of pace? Well, this argument is a tad undercut in the immediate sense of the word. For starters, allow me to provide a French translation of Japanese Daizenshuu 7 (which, by the by, without being in question, is correct):



Now one may argue that the Daizenshuu is not correct when it gets stated power levels like - “Over... ....8,000” - wrong, or that even the French construing of said Daizenshuu is wrong. Well:



Consider this - the “Kanji Oku” or eight zeros as seen in full above actually means hundred millions in the Japanese numeric system. So through that summation, we can indeed surmise that the Daizenshuu is correct on this matter. If this doesn’t stake the belief, consider this - why would Vegeta be so impressed by a nonchalant Goku who stood firm with no Kaio-ken aura flared who could sense Chi at that point to the extent of terming him as the Super Saiyan? And, why would Freeza concede that he knew Goku was reserving a great deal of power - no - not Kaio-ken x20, something he was never expecting to use. And why was the aura only shown flashing over Goku and projecting after the reserves are mentioned and Freeza goes to 50%? Moreover to the point, crane your head back on this one - why would Goku be so utterly amazed by his own power if it was anyplace below Freeza in his 1st Stage (full power) and when he’s felt a power infinitely stronger than that? Want me to expand on the matter? Scrutinize these posts. Courtesy of The Chibi Kiriyama (at Daizenshuu EX) and myself (here):

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chibi Kiriyama
I don’t see why most have such a hard time coming to grips with the power Goku had. Vegeta went in one zenkai from being pummeled around by Reacoom to grappling with Freeza on a semi-equal plane. And in reality, when you look at it Goku was at 850 to 900 thousand after his 10G training. 180 thousand was, as Goku states, only the normal Kaio-ken and only for starters. Theoretically, he would have been close to a million at the extent he could perform the Kaio-ken to: Kaio-ken times ten. And that’s before his zenkai. With his zenkai he was as strong as Freeza without having to perform the Kaio-ken. 3 million is a rather accurate estimate. And 50 fold for his Super Saiyan state isn’t completely out there. Goku states for fact that the Kaio-ken times 20 increases his power 20 fold. The Super Saiyan state makes the Kaio-ken times 20 look like child’s play.

Really, even though the Daizenshuu is somewhat inaccurate in literal amounts, the ranges are not so preposterous.
I don’t see why most have such a hard time coming to grips with the power Goku had. Vegeta went in one zenkai from being pummeled around by Reacoom to grappling with Freeza on a semi-equal plane. And in reality, when you look at it Goku was at 850 to 900 thousand after his 10G training. 180 thousand was, as Goku states, only the normal Kaio-ken and only for starters. Theoretically, he would have been close to a million at the extent he could perform the Kaio-ken to: Kaio-ken times ten. And that’s before his zenkai. With his zenkai he was as strong as Freeza without having to perform the Kaio-ken. 3 million is a rather accurate estimate. And 50 fold for his Super Saiyan state isn’t completely out there. Goku states for fact that the Kaio-ken times 20 increases his power 20 fold. The Super Saiyan state makes the Kaio-ken times 20 look like child’s play.

Really, even though the Daizenshuu is somewhat inaccurate in literal amounts, the ranges are not so preposterous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chibi Kiriyama
Where to start...

Vegeta said (whilst Goku was in his natural state) that he was completely different, and apparently the power increase was indeed that tremendous- he went from believing he was a Super Saiyan after his zenkai to believing Goku could be the Super Saiyan. No Kaio-ken aura up at all, and yet he was so amazed by Goku’s power he was willing to say he could be the one to beat Freeza.

Now let’s look at the comments that say the two were straight-down-the-middle in power:

Neither Gives An Inch!This means that even at the same power Freeza killed Vegeta with Toriyama is directly implying that the two are dead even.

Freeza: “You’re stronger than I thought. I’m a bit surprised. I didn’t think anyone else in the universe surpassed Captain Ginyu.“Now let’s think about this statement. Vegeta was stronger than Ginyu, so much so that he matched Freeza in power. Piccolo was so strong after assimilation that he could feasibly beat a Freeza “over a million”, even a Freeza who had powered up after stating his power was above a million in his Stage Two state. Then Freeza revealed his power increases hugelyfrom transformation to transformation. This same Piccolo is completely outstipped by Freeza’s third transformed state, and goes on to say that the two fighters (still using only a fraction of their tremendous power reserves) were god-like in comparison. So there is a huge difference between the Goku fighting Freeza and the who fought Ginyu, much less Ginyu himself. So the conclusion here is not that Goku is slightly stronger but that this is a statement made in retrospect.

Freeza: “I didn’t think you’d be this good. You’re the first one who has ever put a speck of dust on my body...besides my parents.“This goes to show that Goku (again, no Kaio-ken aura or outside augmentation of his power) is a viable match for Freeza’s sheer strength.

Piccolo: “Freeza’s only toying with him...“Freeza must be much stronger, right? Nope. Next statement:

Piccolo: “But there’s no point in worrying. ..Goku’s not giving it his all either...“Piccolo recognizes that both are only gauging strength and are no place near all-out.

Freeza: “I suppose that’s enough warmup. I’ll have to get serious soon...“Freeza recognizes this as well, and claims the attacks Goku threw his way were part of a dismissive warmup.

Now, let’s examine the next fight in question. Goku’s eyes blank out, and there is an aura that flashes over him; these are signs of the Kaio-ken, which Goku has stated before does two things: 1) augment his power by folds and 2) (when used properly) work in bursts that last the span of a heartbeat. Freeza sees this and avoids the attack. The battle spills into the two of them fighting it out. Notice that now there is no Kaio-ken aura to speak of. The two fight evenly. Goku then uses another Kaio-ken aura to catch Freeza offguard and throw him away. Freeza comes back with a flight aura but is stopped. The fight continues and Goku exploits an opening, forcing Freeza to end it with a punch.

What does this tell us?

A) This cannot be the 10-fold Kaio-ken Kaio speaks of Goku using later, as Freeza would have never dodged it. It can’t even be a Kaio-ken times three, as the power difference would have overwhelmed Freeza. This is a run of the mill Kaio-ken.

cool The two, in their normal states, are dead even in every respect even without a power augmentation to either side.

Then Freeza uses 50% of his maximum power and completely outstrips Goku. This next phrase is critical to the entire conversation:

Kaio: “Sorry...But he’s alreadyusing the 10-fold Kaio-ken...“Logically, Goku has to have used it. Kaio tells us this much. But pre-50% for the reasons I stated Goku could not possibly have used the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. This means that the aura that flashes over him post-50%before Kaio’s comment is indeed a 10-fold Kaio-ken. But- and this is pivotal- Freeza easily counters with a kick that is so powerful it knocks him out of the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. What does this mean? It means that Goku using a Kaio-ken aura that made him 10-fold stronger than himself (the same Goku who fought an even fight with Freeza) is now much weaker than Freeza, who is only using 50% of his power. Goku then tries a 20-fold Kaio-ken aura that (by logic and basic fact about the Kaio-ken) gives him the power to do slight damage to 50% Freeza in the burst it is sustained for. Even then, 50% Freeza is so strong he avoids the attack long enough to break away from it and stop the resulting Kamehameha one-handed. And did he take any damage from a Goku 20-fold stronger and shooting a Kamehameha his way?

Kuririn: “That Kamehameha should’ve packed a huge punch...why doesn’t Freeza show any damage...?!“To finalize this in a graph....

Goku = Freeza
KK Goku > Freeza (for a heartbeat)
Goku <<< 50% Freeza
KKx10 Goku << 50% Freeza
KKx20 Goku w/ Kamehameha < 50% Freeza

So, given these results, are the Daizenshuu’s interpreted range that amazing? There is a massive gap between 50% Freeza and Goku to be accounted for, and Goku couldn’t even make up for the respective reserve difference with an aura that temporarily made him 10 times stronger than himself. Mind you, still remembering that this is a person who only moments ago was only superior to Freeza during the span of a hearbeat using the basic Kaio-ken to double his power (without it, completely even to Freeza). Given the huge power discrepancy and the basic info about the Kaio-ken established again and again, it’s simple arithmetic to compensate for it. When you do, you end up with large numbers. But does that make it wrong?
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Unread 04-29-2010, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Why Freeza and Goku are in the hundred millions. [Part 1]

very impressive indeed
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