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Unread 04-10-2010, 02:45 AM
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Harrison N. Kore Harrison N. Kore is offline
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Default What do you think of postmodernism?

If you've watched Neon Genesis Evangelion, then you've watched an example of postmodernist art.

Now, postmodernism is the denial of objectivity, in essence. Every human being has the desire to make themselves a representative of objectivity. Take this scenario for instance.

FIRST PERSON: I believe there is a God.
SECOND PERSON: I believe there is no God.
FIRST PERSON: You are wrong.

When the first person says, "You are wrong," that is a position of objectivity. It is essentially saying to the second person that, in your mind and subjectivity, there is no God, but, in reality, there is a God. Postmodernism denies that, because they don't believe in the distinction between reality and subjective perception. In that respect, they don't believe in science in its contemporary notion. They believe that science can find more about the nature of the subjective perception of nature, but they don't believe that science can find more about the nature of reality, which is independent of human perception.

What do you think? Do you subscribe to postmodernism or not?

I mean, if you watched that aforementioned anime, you should have noticed that a main theme of it was subjectivity. The protagonist always found shelter within its own mind, its own subjective perception, and it never had or allowed (Depends on interpretation) anything outside of himself, reality or objective truth, to affect its judgments, its decisions. That basically made that protagonist distinct from the majority of other protagonists in storytelling. (Modernists and postmodernists typically don't believe much in genres, because they essentially believe they overlap.) Usually, the protagonist of a story finds something outside of itself to help and support. That's what a hero is perceived. However, the protagonist of the anime basically never found anything outside of itself to become a hero. He only found so inside of himself, which is why some people found the protagonist of Evangelion one of the most unlikable characters ever, but he undeniably represented postmodernism very well in art.

In some respects, Socrates could maybe be considered the first postmodernist, even though Nietzsche criticizes him for maybe believing in things that transcend the individual. The reason that I, at least, consider Socrates the first postmodernist, in some respects and maybe not in other respects, is because he said, "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance." Knowledge is basically, as I understand it, a comprehension of reality, which asserts objectivity. Socrates denies that he comprehends any such objective reality at all, and instead asserts that he only knows of his own perception. Now, this interpretation by me on Socrates is debatable, but that quotation at least is a good example of postmodernism.
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Last edited by Harrison N. Kore; 04-10-2010 at 03:14 AM.
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Unread 04-10-2010, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: What do you think of postmodernism?

I'll make this post small, but I might post again (Got a test tomorrow at 7:00, I need to leave at 6:00 and sleep early today).

I'll do my best and bring my thoughts on postmodernism. I actually did a project/report on modernism for British Literature, but I am inaccurate on anything that is related to philosophy/Era.

Here a sample of my report on modernism. I believed it relate to postmodernism.

*Please note that report was made and combined by several students who participate by researching on modernism. I highlighted some sentences that are most likely agreed by me and the student as fact, strong theories or ideas. (excluding history)

Click here to see full text
History:
Modernism is difficult to define because Modernism argued the world in multiple ways. However, Modernism is a rebellion against the late 19th century tradition, whereas new economic, social and political aspects emerged. Modernism began in the 1900's to reexamine every existence of the past. The movement was greatly influenced by the ideas of Romanticism, Karl Marx's political writings, and the psychoanalytic theories of subconscious. Modernism ended in the 1940 due to huge conflict on the two war.
Modernism, who rebelled against nineteenth century academic and historicist traditions, believe the "traditional" forms of art, architecture, literature, religious faith, social organization and daily life in the past were outdated; they directly confronted the new economic, social and political aspect of an emerging industrialized world. Modernism is highly varied on the manifesto of arts and within arts, including cubism and impressionism and realism. Modernism happen because it was a freedom of expression; new variety of art's styles. In fact, Modernism is everything; to rethink and reexamine arts, philosophy, belief, tradition, science, expression and more. New economic institution were established, such as the industrial production, assembly line, and market economy. Humanity progress marches on, the people find ways to improve the environment and way of life. Modernism ended during or after the end of World War 2 as earth entered toward Post-Modernism.
British in the late 19th century believed that being an empire is the only way to remain powerful in the economical system. With the end of the Victorian Era and a new beginning for Modernism, peoples reach their own goals and try to improve the way of life. However, political issues have change the world. Capitalism and Mass democracy was thought to be the main system to allow the people to believe in their own way of expression. In fact, Modernism have change the influence. Charles Darwin wrote his theories on evolution and caused a religion uproar. Karl Marx wrote literature about political science that problems with the economy were not due to specific people, but is due to the capitalist system. Uprising ideas from political issues would create negative influence on the world; military and economical competition that would lead to war.
Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne is a cry for help from its neighbor. With Germany on the Austro-Hungarian side, Serbia cry for help from Russia and the Great War has begun. The war dragged in France, United Kingdom, Italy, Japan, United State and more nation around the world. Great Britain is the current Empire; Great Britain control India, parts of Africa after Imperialism have mark Great Britain as the strongest in navy technology. Yet, the beginning of the Great War brought advance nations to develop new technologies that would lead to greater destruction. The end of the war resulted in over 40 million casualties. Although there was peace, the economy around the world collapsed in to a great depression. Uprising ideas such as Fascism, Communism, and Totalitarianism brought earth in to deeper concerned about the way of life. The rise of Fascism, especially when Hitler came to power over Germany have brought the World to World War 2. Technologies in World War 2 causes greater fear because governments relied on destruction on nations as soon as possible. Modernism ended during or after World War 2. The end of World War 2 brought an even greater casualties of over 60 million. Even when programs such as the United Nation is established, the world engaged in to another terrifying war; the cold war between the United State and the Soviet Union. Modernism was challenged by Post Modernism in the 1960s.
In Post-Modernism, people are concerned about Modernism in the early 1900s and criticize modernism claims. People were certainly in Modernism, but people are now uncertainly. Post-Modernism is where confidence in human progress had shattered, and that not just god, but the truth, reason, and mortality are excluded from our belief. There are lack of belief if human can improve their lives. Atomic bomb on two city near the Pacific Ocean and a possible Armageddon have caused fear around the world. The world continued to fight, from the Korean War to the Vietnam War, and onward. Peoples are concerned that there are no way the world can create original ideas; the belief whether we can build new ideas might not be possible, and the belief that truth, mortality, and god might not exist after all.


The following paragraph is included in the essay's sample (under spoiler).
Quote:
In Post-Modernism, people are concerned about Modernism in the early 1900s and criticize modernism claims. People were certainly in Modernism, but people are now uncertainly. Post-Modernism is where confidence in human progress had shattered, and that not just god, but the truth, reason, and mortality are excluded from our belief. There are lack of belief if human can improve their lives. Atomic bomb on two city near the Pacific Ocean and a possible Armageddon have caused fear around the world. The world continued to fight, from the Korean War to the Vietnam War, and onward. Peoples are concerned that there are no way the world can create original ideas; the belief whether we can build new ideas might not be possible, and the belief that truth, mortality, and god might not exist after all.
Paragraphs below are my opinions on life, politics, and myself.

If I rethink and reread my post about Post Modernism, I found that it is similar to your post. I said that people lost confidence and hope in god, truth, reason, and mortality, which is similar your post on First and Second person with their viewpoint of god. Through what I think about post-modernism without looking at the information, I think about a shattered world, lost of hopes and confidence. I think the world is getting hopeless and I think my life is useless, which is a sign of losing hope (I figure that out after more lazy year by year, it is because I lost confidence).

I believed that all this issues about giving food, making money by going to work everyday and do the same planning and schedule everyday is boring. People should "affect their life" by doing something useful, or spend their time doing something. My main point is people should explore more, teach more, visit more and spread more; to explore the world.

I later think about confidence, are we going to be able to explore the world? I doubt it, so I lost confidence that I'll succeed. I am losing some interest on politics. Ever see the news and facts that nations hated each other, but when they made a successful negotiation/agreement, they said, "This was a successful negotiation between the two nation. This is proven that our relationship has gotten stronger, and we will continue to show support toward each other." I see news like this, mostly China, Russia, and USA over military deals and negotiation. When they call for a new relationship, they didn't mean it, and the relationship intend to worsen. I have been wishing for a relationship improvement between nations. One is my family hometowns, neighboring Cambodia and Thailand. They hate each other. Cambodia is under heavy poverty because of the Khmer Rouge (communist) party, and Thailand is having another protest (Red, Yellow, then Red again currently). There might been some objection; when Thailand's yellow protested in an airport, I post on youtube that they must not protest. A user replied to me that why can Europe protest, but not Thailand?

This user thinks that one nation should be like the rest, but he never think about the consequences. I replied that protesting in Thailand is a consequences, because the protest take place during Thanksgiving, which means the tourism rating dropped and it made Thailand's economy plummeted. People continue to defy against the government over the economy, and I accuse that the reason why the economy is a problem are because of their riot and lack of thought on certain consequences they causes, which could be the main reason for economic problems.

I myself is losing confidence in business when I am about to major in business/economic. California's budget cut is a huge problem. Teachers are getting lay-off throughout the schools and I don't have enough financial aid to support myself for housing (Thus I can't stay on campus at University). Last month, they made every snacks in the vendor machine $1.25, including a 50$ gum. I also would think that marijuana might become legal.

Conclusion is removed due to "reaching over 10,000 characters."
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Unread 04-10-2010, 01:34 PM
Izumi168 Izumi168 is offline
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Default Re: What do you think of postmodernism?

I'm not really well informed or well read on philosophy, but I'll give my take on this.

I actually heard of postmodernism from my Studies of Visual Arts (SOVA) lessons rather than from some philosophical text or source. The actual origin of postmodernism (if I'm not right) in Visual Art is Dadaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada) which is cultural art movement or in actual fact an Anti-art art movement which originates from the despair and lose of confidence in humanity during the World War 1. Its purpose is to ridicule or mock the meaninglessness of the modern world and influenced other art movements such as Pop Art and Surrealism.

The Readymades of Marchel Duchamp for example were one of the earlier influenced works by Dadaism. His works were anti-thesis of what he calls Retinal Art or in laymen terms art which is only visually pleasing, instead his works are called ''Art'' simply because he as an Artist says so. His most famous known as the Fountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)) is simply a normal urinal signed "R. Mutt".

Otherwise visual art which are post-modern are usually performance art, Conceptal art, video art and Installations. It's actually quite hard to properly define what is postmodern and what isn't, I'm having a hard time trying to give a proper definition to it. Generally Avant-garde non-conventional (or non-traditional painting/sculptural) conceptal works would be considered as postmodern. They also tend to be controversial. Perhaps a good example would be likes of Damien Hirst and his installation works. One fairly informed about art would remember his shark in the glass box named ''The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living'' (a very long name indeed) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phy...Someone_Living

Back to the philosophical part of postmodernism. To me it seems to have a rebellious streak and for some reason uncanningly similar to Enlightment. It also sounds quite nihilistic and relativistic (do correct me if I'm wrong). Do I subscribe to it? Perhaps? Personally I do not really let my philosophical opinions or views affect much of my rational and emotional decisions in life (the solution that Camus advocates for Absurdism? I think?) so I don't think it actually matters. I do believe there is a form of objectivity in the world (like statistics, data or facts?) but our interpretation of this objectivity however is subjective.

Last edited by Izumi168; 04-10-2010 at 01:37 PM.
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Unread 04-27-2010, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: What do you think of postmodernism?

I have heard of it but not fully understanding it. In his book, Richard Dawkins mentioned about books written by postmodernist is full of utter nonsense. Not only it is hard to understand due to bamboozling uncommonly used words and technical terms that have no link with the subject, it is often written by authors who know little of the subject and in an effort to mask his ignorance, the author tend to make it extremely hard to be understood by a common reader.

Perhaps the strongest critics on postmodernism come from Alan Sokal, a professor of mathematics at University College London and professor of physics at New York University. Who had written books of his report in examining postmodernist text written on the subject of mathematics and physics which are his expertise.
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Unread 04-28-2010, 03:11 AM
Harrison N. Kore's Avatar
Harrison N. Kore Harrison N. Kore is offline
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Default Re: What do you think of postmodernism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fullblue View Post
I have heard of it but not fully understanding it. In his book, Richard Dawkins mentioned about books written by postmodernist is full of utter nonsense. Not only it is hard to understand due to bamboozling uncommonly used words and technical terms that have no link with the subject, it is often written by authors who know little of the subject and in an effort to mask his ignorance, the author tend to make it extremely hard to be understood by a common reader.

Perhaps the strongest critics on postmodernism come from Alan Sokal, a professor of mathematics at University College London and professor of physics at New York University. Who had written books of his report in examining postmodernist text written on the subject of mathematics and physics which are his expertise.
If anybody wants to read Richard Dawkins' critique of postmodernism, here is the website. Now, for a primary source, so that some of you can have your initial reactions to this philosophy, here is a text from a philosopher of that school:

Perhaps history itself has to be regarded as a chaotic formation, in which acceleration puts an end to linearity and the turbulence created by acceleration deflects history definitively from its end, just as such turbulence distances effects from their causes.

In that, the scientific concepts are generally correct. However, if we're going to get into the philosophical aspects, the content becomes questionable. With knowledge of the actual physics concepts, however, it could be argued to be an intellectual metaphor, but is it right? "The turbulence created by acceleration deflects history definitively from its end . . ." This is assuming that the end was already predetermined, before the acceleration came into being. How does postmodernism, however, justify a destiny and fate? Are these metaphors even intelligible to most readers, and, even if so, should it be used to express these ideas, or are they just intellectually pretentious?

This website even goes as far as to make a postmodernist essay generator. It looks at all the tendencies that postmodernist writers have and satires it by making these random essays, and some say that it is no worse than the actual postmodernist works. Here is an example of a ridiculous paragraph I attained that honestly made me laugh.

Quote:
1. Consensuses of genre

If one examines capitalist theory, one is faced with a choice: either reject postdialectic feminism or conclude that expression is a product of communication, given that language is interchangeable with art. Bataille uses the term ‘the textual paradigm of context’ to denote the role of the writer as participant.

Thus, subdeconstructive capitalist theory suggests that consciousness serves to entrench capitalism. Scuglia[1] implies that we have to choose between postdialectic feminism and poststructuralist cultural theory.

But several discourses concerning capitalist theory exist. The primary theme of Buxton’s[2] critique of postdialectic feminism is not appropriation, as Lyotard would have it, but neoappropriation.
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Last edited by Harrison N. Kore; 04-28-2010 at 03:37 AM.
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Unread 07-12-2010, 03:50 AM
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not_ya_wify not_ya_wify is offline
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Default Re: What do you think of postmodernism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison N. Kore View Post
FIRST PERSON: I believe there is a God.
SECOND PERSON: I believe there is no God.
FIRST PERSON: You are wrong.

When the first person says, "You are wrong," that is a position of objectivity. It is essentially saying to the second person that, in your mind and subjectivity, there is no God, but, in reality, there is a God.

It's funny to me that you say it is objective to say there was a good because there is no proof of a god existing and therefore it is highly subjective.

But that's not really the discussion anyways.
As I understand this, postmodernism is kind of like relativism. Did I get this right?

You can question everything and there is no proof if anything you perceive as being right is right. Like the brain in the vat (I guess you've all seen matrix) you do not know whether what you see on the outside is really there and if it is the way you perceive it. All that you can be certain of is your own existence. But you do not know whether your body belongs to you or if you even have a body.

I didn't really perceive Shinji the way you did. Actually everything Shinji does is influenced by other people. He is only there and doing what he is doing to get patted on his back by other people and especially his father.
Click here to see full text
And in one episode (I think it was even the last one) it is even said that there are different Shinji and all of them come to existence by another person perceiving him. One that is perceived by Asuka. One by Rei, one by Misato, etc...


I think maybe you had this impression because Shinji is the main character and you get the deepest insight into his mind. But everyone is in a way subjective. I guess you may be overwhelmed by Shinji's egocentric views though.
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Unread 11-16-2015, 03:13 AM
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